declarative vs. imperative language | Autism PDD

Me "You do?"

Anthony "Yes, I pick it up like this." demonstrates how he'd hold it.

Me "Oh yeah - that's cool."

Anthony "Then, I throw it at you head and you hair get all wet." Giggles follow.

Me "You would do that to me? You're silly."

Anthony "Yes I am"

These spontaneous conversations are becoming more frequent (thank goodness).  Thanks for this post Fred I honestly didn't know what it was called or how to address it.  I printed the info from those links and will file it away with my 'things to be addressed in ABA and school.'

Sarah's real conversations are rare so I have to be on my toes to notice them:) She saw a real rainbow in the sky yesterday while I was driving by the mall....I parked in the parking lot so we could take advantage of it and she was screaming:

Sarah:  Mama...LOOK!!!  it's a real rainbow! I see it!  I see it!

me: Oh wow! What colors are in it?

Sarah: All the colors of the rainbow prism:) Red, orange, yellow, blue, green , purple

Me: Is this your first real rainbow?

Sarah: Yea! I am soooo excited!  A real rainbow!! see it?

me: yeah! I sure do... it sure is big!  Is it as like 4th of July fireworks huh?

Sarah: Yea!  But this is much better!! I am so excited to see my first rainbow!

Me:   Be sure and tell daddy and sisi okay?

Sarah: okay! singing; I saw a rainbow...I saw a rainbow..

A minute later it was gone but she will remember it always:) Real life rocks:)

Ask questions anticipating a declarative response?

GREAT links for IEP GOALS!!!

Ask questions anticipating a declarative response?

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No - I think that's what's gotten us in trouble, lol!  The whole Q&A format of our "conversations" seems to be so ingrained in them that it appears that their take on social conversation is 'asking a bunch of questions' themselves (rather than spontaneous, relevent declarative statements and cueing off of the statements of others.

I think the girls language is actually much more delayed than testing shows and their mother concedes due to this specific problem.

Okay -- more declarative statements, yourself ...

I really love the feel of mud between my toes. What do you love about mud?"

Nupurb (on a different thread) pointed out that many ASD kids do not use much declarative language compared to typically developing kids.

This is obviously true with my children, and in some ways, I think I've somewhat trained this into them.  When you're constantly trying to drag social language out of a child, you are constantly putting them into a position of responding to imperative questions.  Over time, I think, this behavior has become ingrained, so that now even our "conversations" are pretty much me asking them questions and them answering the questions.  They'll stay mostly on topic, but as soon as the adult in the exchange stops trolling with a series of questions, the conversation tends to stop.  This is why social communication with peers doesn't work well with my kids - other little kids themselves lack the skills to drag along a peer in this kind of a dependent exchange.

Even more serious is their tendency to ask questions that they already know the answer to because, perhaps, this is how they think that social language is supposed to work!  Initiating social exchanges by asking questions that they already know the answers to is one of their most overly autistic symptoms. 

http://www.pathwaystreatmentcenter.org/papers/decVsImpar.htm l

http://www.pathwaystreatmentcenter.org/papers/declarative.ht ml

The question is, how do we break this cycle of imperative language dependence and encourage the use of declarative language and thus more meaningful and pleasant social exchanges?

I see more imperative language emerging with them (especially during play), but this is a defecit that could clearly use some direct intervention.

Bravo, everyone!

Fred - I love you for your posts!!!!  I'm really hooked on figuring out this declarative language thing.  Last night we took the two big boys to a White Sox game.  Lots to do there - they have batting cages for the kids, they can throw a ball around with some guys, they can throw balls at targets, etc.  Both boys really enjoyed it and the junk food they were allowed to eat

It took a while for DH to "get it".  He would say, I liked the fire works, What did you like Anthony?  So, I had to tell him to not ask questions, just make a statement. 

It worked great.  I'm going to be working on this alot more.  I never realized how much I interrogated my poor child.

I know - it;s hard to get away from.  Even in that clip, I was *still* asking questions rather than just letting them talk, but we've done enough (apparently) that they no longer seem to expect to be prompted and will make declarative statements on their own (even if Abigail tends to shout everyone down, lol).

My favorite part of that video, actually, is at the end, when I ask them if they want to go to Blue Jay Point and Abbie answers with a declaration: "They have a playground there."  I mean, that was an aside and it just came spontaneously to her! 

Nice job with the boys, too - they responded great to your assertions, which is what we want.  Too bad you had to watch the White Sox, though, sorry

Poor Evie isn't able to get a word in edgewise around here anymore (she speaks more softly and is more in tune with the give-and-take of conversation than Abbie is, but with all this declarative langauge emerging, she's getting steamrolled by her sis!  Abbie's cofidence is really going through the roof, actually.  She used to always let Evie talk for both of them, now she just kind talks right over her!).

Kristys -

That's so GREAT!  I only WISH I could get conversation like that from my kids.  Well, my daughter is only 3 (and I'm not sure what to expect from her at that age really), but my son is 5.  The most I'll get out of him, whether it's trying to maintain a conversation or recall a memory, is a few words.  If I try and maintain it, he'll just say "I like it" or something.  "C" is SO on his way to real, complete, give and take conversations!  Hooray for him!

Patty

Mom to Erika (3) and Jeffrey (5) both ASD kids.

Thats great, Kristy.  You are lucky!  Maybe it;'s the NT big brother's influence - the girls are always reinforcing each others odd prosody and speach patterns, so it's hard to get them out of this pattern.  The girls never had ABA, either - but they were so language delayed (assessed as "disabled" with language at three, and still about a year behind at 4.8), that, I think, everyone just constantly interacted with them in such ways as to try to tease any sort of relevent communication out of them. 

Does 'C' have any problems with not providing context for the people he's speaking with?  I'd say, that's the most serious problem with the girl's language at this point.  Their language is now sufficient that they can talk with peers and make themselves understood, but the don't get the concept that they need to provide some context before they begin talking about whatever's on their mine.  Picture the conversation I recorded (linked above) - I knew what they were talking about because I was there and knew what event they were referring to.  However, they would talk this way to a peer, too - they wouldn't say, like, "We went to the museum a few weeks ago and this tiny little brown butterfly crawled from a leaf onto my finger!" - they would just say, well, what they said in the video and the other kid would be completely confused or, if it wa an adult, the adult would probe for context (via questions) reinforcing the Q&A conversational format that's so ingrained with them.

Fred,

I would say that context varies, but it isn't too awful. 

Here is an example, last week C was standing in line for the bus too closely to another boy in his class who I know has severe sensory issues (I'm friendly with the mom).  T got annoyed with C and hit him in the nose, making it bleed.  Both kids went to principal's office, the principal called me to tell me how proud she was of how C handled the whole thing, no meltdown - was able to describe what happened.  (Sidenote:  T is on behavior plan already, teacher will never let them stand in line together again, all is addressed going forward).  Anyway, this is what we got at home.

Conversation with R:

R:  "Mommy, you wouldn't BELIEVE what happened at school today.  We were in line for the bus today and T hit C in the nose and it was BLEEDING and they both had to go to the PRINCIPAL'S OFFICE!!!"

Me: "Why did T hit C?"

R:  "I don't know but C was crying and there was BLOOD.  Can I go play on the trampoline now?"

Conversation with C:

C:  "Mommy, T hurt my nose at school."

Me: "How did T hurt your nose?"

C:  "He hit me in bus line up."

Me:  "That's terrible, what happened?"

C:  "My nose hurt.  We go to Mrs. A's office.  T says he's sorry.  My nose all better now.  Can I go play on trampoline?"

Another example, yesterday we did the autism walk and went to the planetariam.  When our nanny arrived this morning the boys both spoke to her separately about the big day.

Conversation with R:

R:  "B, you won't BELIEVE what we did yesterday.  We went to the big city and did a walk and I got a new puzzle piece shirt and then we went to the planatariam where they showed star movies on the ceiling and we were good so mommy let us buy new toys."

Conversation with C:

C:  "B, we went into the big city and I got new puzzle piece shirt and new rocket ships."

B:  "Where did you get the shirts?

C:  "We did a big walk.  All around football field, and we found a playground.  We climbed up high and played with kids.  All puzzle piece shirt kids."

B:  "That must have been really cool.  Where did you get the rocket ships?"

C:  "We went to plant-arium.  There were movies on the ceiling and big earths.  We got new toys there.  I picked it myself."

Essentially, C gives me enough context to start a conversation and we typically go back and forth a few times to flesh out the details.  His brother, however, goes on and on with details flying out of his mouth and it's hard to get a word in.  Note in both examples above we're using the Q&A format, however in both cases it was very natural and similar to the Q&A I would use with his NT brother in the same situation.

Thanks Kristy's - my son's recap of events is similar to your NT six year old's while the girls are similar to C's (though C's language and recall are better), so I guess this is an autism thing more than an age thing - I was hoping this would get better with age :)

That's great that C handled himself so well, too!  Any of my kids would have had an extreme melt-down in that position!

Their language is now sufficient that they can talk with peers and make themselves understood, but the don't get the concept that they need to provide some context before they begin talking about whatever's on their mine. 

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Dooder does this all the time.  It has gotten better.  I tell him that I don't know what he's talking about (even though I usually do.  I try to imagine what someone else would know) and he usually will give me the context then.  It seems to be working.  He is starting stories with "Remember when....?"

Fred,

I DO see it getting much better with age.  C is at least a year, maybe closer to 2 years (depending on birthday's) older than your girls (he was 6 in Feb).  When C was 4 he was not communicating as well as your girls are now - heck at  4 he was just starting to put sentences together (context was far off pipe dream!)  I think that by the time the girls are 6 you will be astonished at how much they have improved! 

Hang in there - you are doing all the right things!!! 

Nupurb uses humor like I do...throwing in bits of ridiculous or outrageous tales just to snag their attention, and direct them into the dialogue.  Cole is 6, and is not conversational by nature, but the humor helps. 

We also use photos, books, magazines as something concrete to talk about...I try not to Q&A him.  I fear it insults his intelligence or worse, bores him - making him less likely to seek out conversation in general! 

If he is "movie talking" to himself, I also jump in to discuss it with him. If he doesn't invite me in, I'll observe, hmmmm -well, there's no tap dancing in Harry Potter...couldn't be that.  No tap dancing in The Lion King.  Heck, Cole - what ARE you talking about???  He responds to my "confusion" and invites me into his movie talk about Happy Feet.

No, this is not the Barbara Walters Special, by any stretch, but I am at least trying to avoid the Q&A like you suggested.  This is an EXCELLENT point you bring up and one I need to better get a handle on, particularly as Cole improves his conversational ability.

Children learn how to talk from their parents.  A few hours of speech therapy can't hold a candle to the power every parent has of modeling language skills.  If you use a string of imperative language ("What is this?"  "Put your cup here."  "What color is this?") that is what your child(ren) will learn.  It is no surprise that a lot of ASD kids have trouble with conversation because they are often brought up in a home environment where parents either ask them a string of questions or give them commands to follow.

Declarative language is inviting your child to share in the world with you.  The idea is not to never guide or discipline them, but to use more natural language with them.  Think of how you speak with a toddler.  "Oh, you have a brown bunny!"  "I love your string of cars!" That is simple declarative language that invites them to share emotions with you.  You are telling them that you are interested in what they care about.  Eventually, kids learn responses, too, and then the exchanges become more sophisticated, such as nuperb's examples.  The first step in changing your language is to simply comment on what is happening, like people do with very young children.

It is a challenge for parents to stop (or severely curtail) the commands and questions, but it's a very worthwhile endeavour.  Remember that your child is learning to speak from you mostly.  He will imitate (yes, ASD kids do imitate language)  not only what you say, but how you speak.   Declarative language also encourages emotion sharing.   If you describe to your child, talk with your child, (depending on his developmental readiness,)  both of you then naturally share your experiences instead of the parents always telling the child what is "right."

So, yes, the very best way to encourage declarative language in your child is to use it yourself.  Using it yourself sets off a positive cycle.  Remember, language is based in experience.  You want your child's language to be relationship based.

As far as I know my son was in daycare and still didn't say one word. He had to be taught everything. Social typical behaviour is the most difficult part. If the kids could learn just by copy in the right setting I think they would not be autistic. That is basically the problem they don't learn like NT from the environment ..... And in my case high functioning or not the core of the autistic problem is the same. No matter how many times you tell them "Hi"  if they say it back it's probably learned.

Nupurb and littlebobeep said all that fits us.

I just want to add that I started just "talking" to my son when I felt that he might actually be interested and able to understand that level of language. It was just looking at the begining, then commenting but not very appropriate, then some effort to stay on topic (1-2 minutes). I don't know exactly how much he understands from the whole idea of conversation  but it's something. The problem is that it's mostly about him (he relates to my comment but replies back with something that regards him).

Great video Fred!

This is a really interesting topic, one that I had never considered before.  When I read through the links I think that my son has a typical mix of imperative and declarative.  I'm not exactly sure how we got there, but a few thoughts come to mind.   I never questioned C extensively in an effort to get him to talk, I've just always talked to him / with him the same way that I have with his NT twin.  C also never had ABA or any therapy where he was taught scripted responses to questions.  We focused on a floortime model where interactions were very natural.  We also have a VERY extroverted family - everyone is a talker!  He still has speech and language delays, but I think that the speech and language we're getting from him is really typical - he sounds now like his NT twin did 2 years ago.

Wow, Fred...your girls are just adorable...real sweet peas.

And what great conversational language!  Very impressive!

Patty

Fred,

Someone just linked me to this post when I was asking some questions about conversational speech for my son. There was a lot of helpful information and I liked the links you provided. He is not that far advanced in language skills as your daughters and is just starting to speak in sentences. His language his booming right now and I hope I can foster this. With a toddler in the house as well, this is a good reminder for me to adjust how I speak to them. It's tough not to get caught up aksing and expecting answers all day.

Thanks for sharing the video--great example and they are adorable!

Fred,

The girls are so cute and seem to be doing great.  Were they talking about the science museum in Durham?  I took ds there over spring break and he loved it.  The funny thing is that the one place he didn't want to go in was the butterfly house.  He was afraid of the butterflies 'hitchhiking' on him.

So glad to hear that using more declarative language is helping you all to relax, converse, and just be a family together.  You did some great building of "episodic memory" (memory that has meaning) when you all talked about what you remembered about the butterflies.

I'm so excited for you all.  Your girls sound great.  They have a great dad, too!

They are cute!

If my son has the same language in 2 years, it would be great...

Daddy

Hi,

Just an update:  we've been working on incorporating these concepts into our everyday interactions with the girls and the results have been good.  Here's a video that I shot this morning that shows some good declrative language and real experience sharing, not to mention some good (for them) non-verbal communication.  This is a vast improvement from the tedious Q&A conversational format that had become so ingrained (see the beginning of the thread for a description of what I'm talking about).  They still need to learn to provide more context about what they're talking about and not talk over people, but one thing at a time.  Thanks BoPeep and Nupurb for setting me down this course - I think it is working - the quality of our interactions with the girls are becoming much more pleasant - less "forced" - and I think that they are enjoying them more, too..

You are doing an Amazing job with them fred:) 

They are responding beautifully and so natural...hope yall have a wonderful sunday today with the butterflies:)

Too cute ! Keep up the great work!

Thanks for sharing.  I was impressed.

Hmmm... It's been awhile since we've been to the museum to see the butterflies.  You've given me an idea!  Enjoy your Sunday with the family.

I our house,yes, there is a lot of "narration" without a lot of response.  Hardly any questions, unless I'm doing the questions and answers.  The idea is to not put pressure on your child to respond. 

Think about how people naturally are with kids who are just learning language ~ 1 to 2 years old.  Someone who is firing questions at a little kid is totally annoying and the kid usually does not respond.  It's not developmentally appropriate to "quiz" them all the time.  Same with ASD kids who are still getting language down.  So narration is more fitting and more relaxing for the child.  Who wants to be quizzed all day long?  All children, including ASD children just want to be enjoyed and share in the company of loved ones.  

Our declarative language is mostly in the neighborhood of, "Let's take a bath!"  "Oh, is that Buzz Lightyear?" (no response expected) "C'mon, let's jump on the bed!"  "I love your beautiful lineup of cowboy boots!"  You don't have to be all animated all the time, just not full of pressure for a response.  The point is to focus on connecting emotionally with your child, which is totally possible with little to no language, and move the focus away from mentally testing his skill level all the time.

As for putting declarative language in IEP goals, I am so not an expert on that.  But it sounds great. 

Let me just clarify that my son definitely has social needs.  He loves playing with his classmates at school, and playing with his little brother at home.  But he wants to play on his terms, and have conversations on his terms.  If he doesn't feel the need to express something, he doesn't see the point of having that  conversation, even if it's with Mom in the calm environment of home.  If he does that in the real world, people will potentially perceive him as arrogant or shy or whatever. 

I would like him to learn to have conversations on other people's terms sometimes, even though this isn't my son's natural inclination.  But I also want him to be able to self-advocate, to be open about his disability and tell people when he's just not up to talking. 

To get back to the original topic, I tried to ask fewer questions last night, to see how well he could hold up his end of the conversation.  There definitely were some long pauses, and I think it's a good suggestion that I fight my impulse to fill those pauses with questions.  After one particularly long pause, I pointed out that he didn't react to what I said, and it turned out that his mind had wandered and he hadn't caught what I said.  I also noticed that he steered the conversation into repeat mode a couple times -- wanted to hear me repeat something that gave him good feelings.

Both he and his little brother struggle with disfluency (similar to stuttering), and it's important that they don't feel rushed in a conversation.  Allowing pauses slows down the conversation.  It may be a little uncomfortable for me, but it's probably just right for them.

I also have a tendency to talk for them when we're with other people, because they don't acknowledge that they've heard or respond quickly enough.  I'm trying to work on that, too.

Finally read the link -- I thought it was going to be long, but it's not.

It was informative to see the different types of declarative language listed -- such as indirect prompts (now is a good time to...), self-narrative, etc. 

Thanks again.

Actually, that your son even could wrap his head around the idea that you were not feeling well is fantastic.  And he offered you some ideas about why you might be feeling bad.  Depending on your child's age, this is about all most kids can do in the "empathy" department, especially with a parent, who is usually perceived as perfect and all-knowing. 

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4.5 y.

You see, that is the tricky part! It's not really empathy it's a learned thing : "When somebody is not feeling well we go to the doctor". He didn't comment like :"Why", "Where hurts ?". He just suggested to go to doctor and he asked me to read instead of really understanding from my body language that it's not the right time.

I can give another example .... Let's say he did domething bad and I am upset about it. He will say sorry but he will request from me to be happy again. It's mostly because me being upset disrupts the pattern he has about his environment. One doctor explained me that better than I can do it now ....

Can somebody  support me in explaining this ?

And further on in the conversation you can notice a tendecy to settle things again in his terms.

I would be very interested in a conversation about how the empathy can be learned or how to get some "Theory of mind" but right now I have bigger problems with my son and to be onest I don't think we can get too far on those.

You know how when you feel crummy, you're supposed to go ahead and put on the pink lipstick (not you guys, though), wear the pastel blouse & strappy sandals, and SMILE at stangers?  You know, PRETEND to be happy and you accidentally will become happy over time?

Maybe some people on the spectrum have to do the same thing?  Or maybe they already DO FEEL empathy, they just don't show it like NTs do.  Are you certain your son isn't feeling compassion at your illness or regret over his bad manners? I'm not disagreeing with you...just curious about my own kid's reactions.

Any of you adults with ASD have any input?  Ya'll have a goldmine of insight for we parents of little kids...ideas?  Thanks!

This is what I have always tried to say about my dd.  I could never find the right words to make my point though:)  I always say, she lacks the flow of natural language.

My dd talks ALL THE TIME.  No joke, 24-7 but its mainly a question answer thing...I never get the natural flow of a conversation.

She passes all of her speech tests and I was even told by her developmental ped. that her pragmatics test came back just slightly delayed.  She told me, no big deal, just get her more peer interaction...she will catch up...

We just had her follow up appointment on Monday.  She still feels dd is not on the spectrum...but wants to continue follow up every six months.  She also opted to drop her label of language disorder?!?!?!   I was told that she has had too much progress without a lot of intervention.  She feels it is a learning style issue and thinks my dd is just learning disabled.

Still though, I of course have doubts...  

Hi leAnne.

When it's about getting a certain objective perspective  I just compare my son with NT kids and I always do see a difference. I try to get a system of reference from the doctors ... to starts with.

Very interesting thread.  Thanks for starting it, Fred.

I've been researching the different parts of speech for my upcoming CSE meeting for my son - just so I can tell the district EXACTLY what needs to be worked on.  For my son, it is all about declarative communication.  He has all the tools he needs - he just needs to put them in place.  I know he will.

Q and A is pushed so heavily though.  After some point, you'd think they'd get hip to some declarative speech too!  (Hello!  Move on!)

I'm going to use some of the suggestions here though...I like the idea of saying something ridiculous and seeing what happens.  I'd love for my son to have a real conversation with me - even if it was short - about a movie he liked, a kid in school, etc.

Patty

You, the parent, can greatly influence your child's ability to converse.  Change the way to speak with your child.  Learn about declarative language and why it is so important to interact this way.   Sticking to "natural conversation," however elementary at first, lights the way to future friendships for your child.  Fred's link said it best:

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Typical communication contains 80% declarative communication, and 20% imperative communication. Studies with people who have autism show that less than 1% of communication used is imperative.

Using declarative communication can make a dramatic difference. Declarative communication removes the pressure off of the child to perform and provide the right answer. Declaratives are invitations to interact, while questions are typically cues to provide a right answer. Declarative communication is more than just a way of talking. It is a way of interacting/being with another person. It is taking a side by side position with another person, where you look out at the world together....

...We are bothered by the lack of communicative initiation of spectrum children and go to great lengths to hear them speak. However, setting them up in roles of Responder for the vast majority of the time will likely only encourage their isolation, their lack of self and their lack of initiative."

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Hey guys!  I'm trying to still get going with declarative language...DH and I've talked about it and think we're doing imperative and declarative, but more the former.  Unless its saying absurd things to get him to correct us or asking questions of him, Cole doesn't seem to respond to our "musings"too much.

Is that kind of what you mean by declaratives?  Like, commenting on what we see around us, asking "wh" questions, etc?  I do have an RDI book that I'm gonna start reading AFTER the IEP this week. 

Was hoping to find some declarative language goals in that mega list of IEP goals Norway Mom dug up and shared. Will go dig now.

Any suggestions relative to this sort of language for the IEP?  Have ya'll included this on your kids' IEPs?  Thanks!

For some reason, I missed this topic until today. 

On the telephone, my autistic son's conversational skills are about zero.  It seems like he has a very hard time focusing on what's said if he doesn't have something/someone to look at.

I haven't really analyzed our in-person conversations for declarative and imperative language, but I'd guess that it really depends on the subject matter.  When I want to know about his school day, it's bound to be lots of questions.  He doesn't really feel the need, urgency or desire to communicate about this. 

But when we're talking about something that interests him, the conversation is bound to be more declarative.  The thing is, a lot of his reaction to what I say is nonverbal glee, and then he tries to steer the conversation back to the same thing, so he can feel that glee again.  He likes to hear funny stories about when he was little, and stories/comments about things he did that he feels proud of.

When he was 4 or 5 years old, there was an episode at preschool where one of the other kids took my hat when I came to pick my son up.  When we got home, he was still fired up about that, and talked up a storm with lots of declarative language.  The next day, I decided I wanted him to tell the story for the video camera.  It was like pulling teeth.  I had to ask lots of questions and give lots of prompts.  Again, the big difference there is that he didn't feel the need, urgency or desire to communicate about something that was no longer interesting for him.

Let's face it, autistic kids don't have the same level of social needs, and this affects their communication style.  But they basically need to learn to fake it, because give-and-take conversation is an important part of getting along in the world.

I'll have to check out that link.

[QUOTE=NorwayMom]Let's face it, autistic kids don't have the same level of social needs, and this affects their communication style.  But they basically need to learn to fake it... [/QUOTE]

NorwayMom, I usually agree with your POV, but gotta take exception to this.  I totally disagree! 

IMO, their social needs are not as apparent as NT kids', but the need does indeed exist.  Many ASD kids are fearful and confused by the chaotic social world around them and thus, shy away from people.   But they certainly can learn to become more adept and happy being social.  Maybe many ASD kids/people don't want a bevy of friends but most want love, relationships, friendship and company.  And ASD kids are quite capable of learning how to be friends with someone - in a genuine way.  I guess this is a topic for another thread. 

In between desire to have interaction and the succes in having a conversation is a constant struggle to get a common denominator betwen the real world and their abbilitie to live in it.

Fred-

Thanks for bumping this.  I really didn't realize how much I need to work on this and why.  Like other posters, I have been encouraging her to have back and forth conversation for so long using questioning that I have failed to merge her conversation from imperatitive into declarative form.

Definitely, going to bring this up for her social skills teacher at her IEP meeting on the 20th.

ttfn